Curse

Xiphos The Fallen · Jun 05, 2011, 06:05 PM // 18:05

It seems to me people cannot win games without exploiting certain builds or tactics. PvP has become less about skills and more about stacking these 'OP' builds, namely in JQ.

Every game its either: N/A Bomber or M/P with RoJ or Me/Any, R/Any or E/Any.
I call them OP because they take 0 skill to play, are able to cap a whole base in seconds, which I consider OP, because no one shud be able to do that, especially in a mode like JQ where bases matter too much. I don't think its OKAY to wipe out a base every respawn turning the game in your favor.

I'd have to say any decent player will agree with me. It doesn't take skills to cast 4-5 skills then run in to nuke, nor does it take skill to stand on the edge and spam RoJ.

The current state of JQ is anything but fair. Range characters+aoe have a huge advantage over melee. How many times do you see a warrior soloing base with 2 people on him.

Before people start replying with "QQ" "N00b" "L2p" I'll admit there are counters to these builds. Interrupts/slows/knockdowns hinder them considerably. However, in any given pug how many people can you rely on to do that? And thats my point. In a game with equal skill level, people abusing these builds vs regular players will ALWAYS come on top. Simply because of mechanics. I've tried a few of them, got sick of it in one fight, because I knew it wasn't me winning, it was a game breaking build doing it for me. In fact I'd be surprised if people even lose with these builds, as its possible to single handily carry every game.

I just wish people would learn to think and make their own builds, instead of copying what everyone else is doing for easy mode wins. A Net should be rewarding players for using their own builds/playstyle instead of penalizing them, but sadly its the other way around.

Killed u man · Jun 05, 2011, 06:26 PM // 18:26

JQ and FA aren't concidered PvP because you don't fight the other team directly. Instead, you fight NPC's (which ball up or in this case spawn balled up) as does your opponent, and whoever is better at fighting them (PvE so to speak) wins.

There is very few actual PvP involved in FA and JQ.

That on a side note, on a more serious one:

JQ has obvious flaws, you can't blame people for abusing them. Why Anet decided to ball up all these NPC's and make them so easy to kill is beyond me. Why you insta cap a shrine once the NPC's are dead also is.

Fixing the latter 2 would already change a whole lot, because simply nuking a shrine isn't enough to cap it, saying alive and beating the other enemy players should be a requirement.

I can make an 1000 word post about the flaws of JQ and FA, I won't. They're so blatantly obvious, some even direct glitches (FA turtles) anyone with the slightest clue will understand why it is these formats are flawed.

Xiphos The Fallen · Jun 05, 2011, 08:00 PM // 20:00

You are correct. However, while JQ isn't considered real PvP like GvGs, there is still some pvp involved and its one of the best ways to farm balthz imo.
I also agree the flaws are obvious, the question is.. why A Net hasn't bothered fixing it.
With all their talk about "We make the game for players, blah blah" sure doesn't seem like it.

MidnightOokami · Jun 05, 2011, 08:18 PM // 20:18

The reason why the builds for N/A Necro Bomber and RoJ Monks is in tact is probably because they are easily countered. I mean I do not play either class because it's simply too easy but anyone can counter both of these classes easily. I take enchant removal and strip the bomber as soon as they teleport in and all that's left is bleeding. RoJ monks ... take one interrupt and they just stand there and spam prots. I'm not supporting either one of these classes but they have flaws that can easily be countered if you come prepared for such situations.

Anet stated whenever they released the Dervish update that they are working on Smiting Monks so maybe they are planning on toning down the RoJ skill in PvP and maybe buffing them a bit in PvE. I mean the line is pretty decent at best so really RoJ seems like the only skill really going for them. Then again ... monks weren't really made just for damage.

I don't mean to be defensive but I actually support your post 110%. That doesn't mean I get upset if there's a necro bomber on our team but it is a shame. I just sorta gave up on the whole "fair" thing in JQ since there are so many bugs and Kurzicks have quite a few advantages over Luxon. As for the PUG thing you might as well rely on yourself for bringing things like this. I mean it sounds ridiculous to base almost a fourth or half of your bar on protecting a shrine but in the end that means you've rendered a whole class completely useless at least for that shrine.

That said I do know what you mean about it being unfair that shrine get's wiped in like five seconds flat but at this rate I guess we can't really do much seeing that GW2 is on it's way and it's up to the players to counter builds such as these.

*lemming* · Jun 05, 2011, 08:26 PM // 20:26

You're playing a format that revolves around killing balls of NPCs.

I wonder how that works.

Anet has definitely heard suggestions to make JQ and FA shrines work like AB shrines by require time to cap. They're in their current farmable state by design.

PS: I edited the thread title. Sensationalism is overrated.

Xiphos The Fallen · Jun 05, 2011, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Yes, JQ revolves around killing NPCs but I highly doubt they were meant to be killed in 1-2 seconds. That would make no sense at all, why even bother creating such an arena.

Regardless it seems the only solution is to counter build, which works for me. But it is by no means fair PvP.

samerkablamer · Jun 05, 2011, 09:13 PM // 21:13

You know, neither side is at a meaningful disadvantage in JQ... so its still a fair game type. Everyone is on the same playing field

Thornblade · Jun 05, 2011, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Am a regular in FA at the moment but tried some JQ for the z quest recently, it was worse than i remember, most of the players run bar which are incapable of engaging in pvp, so they ignore you and try and capture the shrines, so i tried to prevent them from doing so, the trouble is some of their builds are so efficient that you have to play far better then them to be effective, e.g. i intterupt a few of the skills a bomber is using ( although some are quite fast ) even then they will usually still have enough to wipe the shrines.

Most of the skirmishes seem to be 1v1 or 2v1, and the few players that do intend to fight will bring very unusual or defensive builds that you can't easily counter ( i usually play mesmer by the way,) in 4v4 it would be easier to find a good target, also a lot of the enemies bring speed boosts and simply run when they are losing a 1v1, after that i would perhaps attempt to capture a shrine ( which usually takes ages due to my bar ) at which point said enemy will be using hit and run tactics to make things harder.

All in all i feel that i would be more useful to the team if i ran some sort of meta cap build ( might aswell play pve ) or specialize my bar more for taking out difficult enemies, which would likely reduce my shrine capping abilities further.

Overall i prefer FA since they at least need to fight in a more pvp style manner in that your usually assisting somebody else to repel several attackers and they gain little by JQ style tactics.

How to fix it ? im not sure, AB is based on shrine caps but i really like that system, probably because you do better by sticking with your group.

As a side note I tried ab recently in american server to confirm that the lag was still an issue,
ping was orange most of the time and mesmer was almost unplayable as i was frequently nearly missing 1 second intterupts,
I blame this in part for the mass move from ab to cm,
They needed some mechanism to give incentive for players
to use their local server and not simply go to the most active when it is too quiet. Possibly reduced faction for playing on other servers ?

Pugs Not Drugs · Jun 05, 2011, 09:55 PM // 21:55

the only issue i have atm with jq is that roj monks can completely cap a shrine within seconds using only one skill, which leaves them free to buff and heal turtles and protect shrines with their other 7. basically they can do three of the most important aspects of jq (protecting turtles, protecting shrines, and capping shrines) extremely well using a single bar.

the other builds you mentioned either dedicate their bars to capping (n/a or e/any) or take a while to do so (r/any), which i dont have a problem with

Andemius · Jun 05, 2011, 10:04 PM // 22:04

i agree jq is unbalanced, but i think your missing some of the point.

RoJ is interruptable as are eles, Bombers can be stripped of enchs or made to bleed, rangers can be empathyied melee isn't realy built for capping unless it's a derv.

Melee is not underpowered, it serves it's purpose, sins and dervs are still good.

I think mesmers are OP due to the recent buff not being pve/pvp split, but that's about the only issue.

Everything else is easily countered. I mean a bomber has to use 8 skills to cap a shrine!

Just play smart.

shinta_himura · Jun 05, 2011, 10:33 PM // 22:33

I agree with your concerns. However, as overpowered as those builds are, they are equally breakable.

I've given all of those staple builds a try, and they all depend on the enemy team being equally meta-addicted or stupid. All it takes is one random, decent ranger or mesmer to completely shut down an ROJ. A real monk can just sit there and laugh as the ROJ's damage gets nerfed and recovered within seconds by two or three healing/protection prayers, all the while giving their runner NPCs a boost with "Make Haste!".

Necromancer bombers are probably the worst offender. Play a hammer warrior and just knock-lock them to death. They click on the shrine and then auto-run to it, half of the work a warrior has to do is done for you.

Or just ignore the idiots altogether and play a water ele, they can cap the shrine all they want but they won't score if their turtle can't move.

Whenever I play JQ I play a dedicated shrine guardian monk, a hammer warrior or a water ele.

dsielschott · Jun 05, 2011, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by samerkablamer

You know, neither side is at a meaningful disadvantage in JQ... so its still a fair game type. Everyone is on the same playing field

This post hit it on the nose.... also there are counters to all these builds... and I know when you play heal/bond monk and the bomber/RoJ/ele nuker cant kill the NPC they get frustrated and stop tryin to cap your shrine....

so maybe you should just be a little creative with your build to stop all these builds you are complaining about....

Jeydra · Jun 06, 2011, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiphos The Fallen

Yes, JQ revolves around killing NPCs but I highly doubt they were meant to be killed in 1-2 seconds. That would make no sense at all, why even bother creating such an arena.

Regardless it seems the only solution is to counter build, which works for me. But it is by no means fair PvP.

Point is it's possible, and there're many (many) builds that can do it. So you can't complain. If you say JQ is PvP, then you should also say JQ is its own form of PvP requiring its own special tactics and builds.

I don't agree with the skill argument.

Also what's stopping regular players from using these same builds? It's not like there's only one build that caps shrines. There're plenty of builds that cap shrines quickly, and plenty of builds that stop people from capping shrines quickly. No you (usually) can't carry a game single-handedly, but it's an 8-man area. You shouldn't be able to carry a game single-handedly.

My main problem with JQ is that it's gotten a lot more competitive and I don't win nearly as much anymore (used to win ~90% of my games on Kurzick side). But hey, that's not something I can complain about, is it?

ErrantVenture · Jun 06, 2011, 01:25 AM // 01:25

JQ and FA aren't PvP. Don't try to act like they are. They're areas that revolve around killing balls of NPCs in order to farm a PvE title.

Verene · Jun 06, 2011, 01:40 AM // 01:40

A lot of the so-called OP builds that are used in JQ are easily countered. RoJ is easy to interrupt, unless they use Mantra of Resolve, but most don't because they go /P. Eles are shut down just as easily. N/A bombers can be shut down with enchantment removal. Melee is ridiculously easy to shut down (I can't even count how many times I've seen a physical character suicide by attacking with Empathy on them).

Really, all you need to be able to do is cause damage. Some builds are better than others, but they're also pretty easy to stop at the same time.

Xiphos The Fallen · Jun 06, 2011, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErrantVenture

JQ and FA aren't PvP. Don't try to act like they are. They're areas that revolve around killing balls of NPCs in order to farm a PvE title.

First of all, that is incorrect. FA/JQ are considered PvP not PvE, it should be obvious considering there are interactions between players and not just npcs.

Is that what cappers think of JQ? Farming? You can think w/e you want but it doesn't change the fact it was supposed to be competitive, like any PvP. The reason why ppl think of it as farming and PvE is because of these builds that are designed to avoid combat and simply nuke npcs. This is not how JQ was supposed to be played. Or else there would be no point in making it PvP. Yes, its useful for farming faction points, but doing the same thing over and over, I can't understand how people have any fun at all. If not for these builds people would actually have to use their brains and organize assaults, defence, make use of tactics/teamwork. However, in their current state that is a waste of time, as you can simply walk in mindlessly and accomplish your goal. I guess some people find that 'okay' but to me it just shows a lack of skill.

Step 1: Wiki for builds
Step 2: Follow build
Step 3: Faceroll
No thinking involved, no skill.

Back on topic: While its clear most experienced players know how to counter build vs cappers, I still think its game breaking in pugs. Simply because the team with more cappers will come on top again one without it. Not only is it frustrating to new players but also unfair. I played a match today with 0 cappers on my team vs 3 on the opposition. I don't need to tell you what the score turned out to be.

Pugs Not Drugs · Jun 06, 2011, 03:11 AM // 03:11

technically its pvpve, but i really consider it to be pve

you can win a match without ever touching an enemy player

Xiphos The Fallen · Jun 06, 2011, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Thats exactly my point. If there weren't any 2 second nuking builds it would be alot more PvP based. You'd have to fight through enemy players rather then rushing in and exploding.

Kunder · Jun 06, 2011, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Run warrior builds in situations where they aren't useful.

Complain that everyone running a build appropriate to the area are skill-less noobs for not running things that are bad.

Whine on gwg.

??

Profit.

If you want to fight people go to RA. If you go to an area where the objective is something non-deathmatch then don't expect an enemy to waste time fighting you just because you are there.

Dami · Jun 06, 2011, 06:45 AM // 06:45

It's PvPvE. You can kill other players as well as npcs. It is classed as a competitive mission. Anet see it as :
" Competitive Missions are missions in which two randomly assembled teams of eight fight each other until certain victory conditions are achieved. These teams will also enlist the aid of NPCs to help accomplish their goals. "
I find it a fun way to get faction and takes me away from the grind of vanquishing. Nope doesn't need major skill but nor did AB.
The real skill is in your GvG/HA. Nerfing the builds used in JA/FA will totally kill it off. No cappers around much? simple i go and make one then go back in.